Is gelatine haraam?

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

Bismillahi wa salaatu wa salaamu 'alaa rasulillah,

(Taken entirely from a dars given by Sh. Muhammad Bazmool, translated by Moosa Richardson and a fatwa given by Sh. al-Albaani)

Istihala is when something becomes pure. It was najis (impure) but it is now taahir (pure). A good example would be maitah (animal carcass): it is najis, but should it be burned and become ashes, or decompose and become earth, then it is taahir, it is no longer najis. This can happen with dung or feces or whatever. Whenever something changes from one property to another, then the ruling likewise changes.

Example: Let us say that someone uses the fat of a dead animal to make soap. That fat is najis, but the chemical change that it was put through makes it taahir.

Ibn Hazm put it concisely when he said,

"Ruling upon an object is upon what it is named (what it is), if the name (what it is) changes then so does the ruling."

He also mentioned in his book of fiqh, Al-Muhalla: "If the quality of the substance of naturally impure objects changes the name which was given to it so that it is no more applicable to it and it is given a new name which is given to a pure object, so it is no more an impure thing. It becomes a new object, with a new rule."

Meaning that if the natural composition of a substance changes to another substance of a different composition, so much so that you can no longer call the new substance by the name of what it was-- ruling upon that substance changes too.

Proof/Example 1:

The companions (radyallahu anhum) used to eat a cheese that came from the land of the disbelievers. In that cheese was a part of the calf which was slaughtered by the disbelievers in a way that is not in accordance with Islaam. The companions knew this, but they also knew that the prohibition was upon the calf, what is directly from the calf, and what could be properly called part of the calf; the ruling is not upon that which you cannot identify as part of the calf nor is it called any longer such-and-such part of the calf. This is called istihala.

Proof/Example 2:

Another proof from the Sunnah: The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) forbade making vinegar out of wine, but he said that if you should come across vinegar that has been made from wine then it is halaal.

Why?

The ruling is upon what the object is, and not what it was. Wine is haraam; vinegar is not, and before the wine became an intoxicant, it was halaal. Why? Because it was fruit before that.

Proof/Example 3:

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle we give you to drink of what is in their bellies from between the feces and blood, pure milk, wholesome to those who drink it." (16:66)

Allah is putting forth an example for us of how something pure can come from something impure.

And we can also use as proof something that we've already gone over. The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said that when the hide of maitah (the carrion) is tanned, then it is taahir. He (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) gave us a method to purify something which was first impure.

Let us examine things we are familiar with: mono and diglycerides, whey, gluten, emulsifiers, gelatin, and whatever else is on the international haraam list. These by-products sometimes come from animals, pigs even, in which case the ruling on the initial substances is that they are haraam. But the initial substances (e.g. fat, marrow, cartilage, etc.) are put through chemical change so that you no longer can even call it "pig fat" or "animal bone" or "skin" or "cartilage", etc. because it is no longer that, hence it is taahir, it is halaal.

What is gelatin? As Oxford dictionary of science defines: "A colorless or pale yellow, water-soluble protein obtained by boiling collagen with water and evaporating the solution. It melts when water is added and dissolves in hot water to form a solution that sets to a gel on cooling." (page 290)

Is this a chemical change or is this not a chemical change? Is it protein any longer? No, it is not.

You are in disbelief so you ask, "But how can it be halaal when it came from something haraam?"

Because of the proofs mentioned above, the ruling is not based upon what it was, the ruling is based upon what it is. A Hanafi scholar, Ibn Abedin gave the example: "the swine which drowns in a salt lake and decomposes and becomes salt itself, is now halaal."

And other Hanafi scholars go on to say: "salt is different from meat and bones. If they become salt, they are salt."

To take the salt example further: salt consists of sodium chloride (NaCl) when together they are the halaal food known as salt, when separated they make up two poisonous substances which are then haraam for consumption.

The ahnaaf (Hanafis) also use as an example the human semen, saying that it is najis, then when it inseminates the egg and becomes a blood clot it is still najis, but when it becomes flesh it is no longer najis. And the ahnaaf are not the only ones who take this position.

The examples are numerous and they extend beyond food: Yesterday a man was kaafir and going towards Hell, today he is Muslim, so what is the ruling upon him? It is based upon what he is today.

We must be careful when we call things haraam because it is a form of thulm (oppression). Scholars have said that it is worse that you make something halaal to haraam rather than making something haraam to halaal. This deen Allah has made yusr (easy) let us not make it 'usr (hard). Wallahu 'Alim.

Rasheed Abdullaah

WAT DO U MAKE OV THAT?


go down the shops n buy sum haribo n drumsticks i say! lol

[Original Sistah]

Originally Posted by w ά ŧ έ υ έ я

if you wana act bad, and say im not tellin the truth...dont call me a disbeliever...cos thats haraam in itself...what do you know abt me other than what im saying here?

and btw...what is it with you ppl ...our religion is based on scientific fact! most ov what our religion teaches us...can be proven by science.... so how is the fact that im using science to back up what i believe to be the truth be wrong?...u dont know what your talkin about...

and why are u talkin abt cadburys? and drum playing? i dont have a clue what your point is there...cos ive got better things to do than analyse ADVERTS!

Yeah right like you really haven't seen the Cadbury's advert, just another attempt at running from a debate. Let me spell it out for you then, There is an ape playing the drums you see, science believes that is your ancestor doesn't it?

If you don't consider yourself superior to anyone, then why couldn't we have an amicable debate being civil to each other and using valid points, instead of you just going on and on about your 'theories' with your limited knowledge of Science? If you truly believed in Islam, ie wanted to get correct knowledge about it, you woulld be addressing my points, pondering them etc not just repeatedly saying you're right you're right.

based on science? I said that many scientific facts are in the qur'an but lmao are you serious?!? honestly?!? I'm actually asking because I'm in shock lol... science totally goes against the faith in GOD

can you hear God? see Him? talk to Him? NOPE, and what is Science based on? Facts. What, does it say somewhere in Islam to get a geiger counter and measure God's radiation?

lmao

thanks for the laugh hun, seriously, Jazak Allah khair

[Original Sistah]

Originally Posted by BabyLeo

Also how do you know if a muslim killed the meat in the shop? a white guy can be muslim but ppl would not buy a pakistani guy could be any other religion then muslim and you will buy
Money talks alot(i say alot not all!!) of these shops think about money before anythink else!!

leo - Islam has a lot of emphasis on niyyah - intention. We can never 100% know that an animal has been slaughtered in the halal manner, but when sellers say that it is, we buy it on the intention of knowing that it is. So any sin, if it's haram, goes on to the seller

[Original Sistah]

Originally Posted by w ά ŧ έ υ έ я

have a nice time lookin for the "V" sign...LOL...see its not as simple as that is it? Lookin for the vegetarian sign...cos it doesnt always apply to muslims!!!

jeez...talk abt killin the topic.

doesn't apply to muslims? lol hellllooooo do you know what vegetarian means? that's why Muslims are allowed to eat it (thought that was obvious, but obviously not)

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

every1 here knows u do?...uurrr right...there's only me, you and one other person in the conversation...its hardly enough to say your right.

and i don't spread my "trash" to impressionable people, i pass it on for others to reflect on...i never asked you to believe what im saying...which is why the thread is called "is gelatine haraam?" rather than "gelatine is halal"...

and i dont know what science you've learnt but we're obviously on different levels here...and ive noticed...you never replied about the alcohol in bread which may i remind you DOES have traces of alcohol in it? so i take it you dont eat white bread? OK...FAIR POINT THEN....

other than that....

some people need to be a little open minded and less offensive....

and im goin to be the bigger person here and leave you with....

[Kafiroon 109:1] Proclaim, (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), “O disbelievers!”

[Kafiroon 109:2] Neither do I worship what you worship.

[Kafiroon 109:3] Nor do you worship Whom I worship.

[Kafiroon 109:4] And neither will I ever worship what you worship.

[Kafiroon 109:5] Nor will you worship Whom I worship.

[Kafiroon 109:6] For you is your religion, and for me is mine.


Im not saying your a disbeliever...what im tryin to say is you believe what you want to believe and i'll believe what i want to believe...lets just leave it at that...because your goin to turn this into some sort of slangin match..and ive got better things to do.

as salaamu alaikum

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

Originally Posted by Original Sistah

Yeah right like you really haven't seen the Cadbury's advert, just another attempt at running from a debate. Let me spell it out for you then, There is an ape playing the drums you see, science believes that is your ancestor doesn't it?

If you don't consider yourself superior to anyone, then why couldn't we have an amicable debate being civil to each other and using valid points, instead of you just going on and on about your 'theories' with your limited knowledge of Science? If you truly believed in Islam, ie wanted to get correct knowledge about it, you woulld be addressing my points, pondering them etc not just repeatedly saying you're right you're right.

based on science? I said that many scientific facts are in the qur'an but lmao are you serious?!? honestly?!? I'm actually asking because I'm in shock lol... science totally goes against the faith in GOD

can you hear God? see Him? talk to Him? NOPE, and what is Science based on? Facts. What, does it say somewhere in Islam to get a geiger counter and measure God's radiation?

lmao

thanks for the laugh hun, seriously, Jazak Allah khair

YAAAWWWNNNNN i dont wana know about cadbury's....why r u tlkin abt that neway? i dont care what science said about apes...


and islam is based on facts! which are scientific!! OMG if you don't kno that..then ur stupid...you said that science contradicts god...but islam uses science to prove there is a god! deary me...ur lack of intelligence is really annoying me...and you say that im immature...who goes around LMAO-IN at other people's opinions...you belong in the playground...and like i said....I CANNOT BE BOTHERED FINISHIN THIS DEBATE WITH A HYSTERICAL CHILD.


AS SALAAMU ALAIKUM!

[Original Sistah]

Finally the salafi salaams back! oh, it's only because she's leaving because she can't address my points. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but you didn't address even one? hmm strange I thought someone so opinionated would have evidence to back up their claims, authentic evidence I might add.

People may not comment on this but I know they read it, they just don't want to get involved, I don't blame them, I never lower myself to even responding to people who have no clue on what's going on in their grey matter, but I'LL REPEAT I don't like people trying to change Islam.

I don't get into 'slanging matches' love, people here only know me from this site, if they knew me from anywhere else, they would know I'm more into intellectual debate and constructive promotion rather than arguing with a child who won't back down.

woahhhh you're trying to back away from you supporting that gelatine is halal? bit late now isn't it..lol. erm you do know that verse is for disbelievers right as in NOT THE SAME RELIGION AS ISLAM, ie there is no compulsion in reliigion, not I am Muslim I will eat haraam things, you are Muslim, you don't. Because there are some things in Islam that CANNOT be misinterpreted.

Talking about the white bread (I assume you make it since you know), you wouldn't really be asking me if I eat white bread if you actually knew why alcohol was forbidden in the first place, enough said.

hahaha, you see I laugh because I find it funny, people have opinions yes, but sometimes they just don't have any substance to them and are funny, as is the case here. we ARE on different levels 'mate', glad you noticed, I reckon I've done more science than you, so you swanning around like you're the only scientist here was a bit premature..

and fyi, for people that don't know, you don't need to be clever to do science, heck I even did it

and why don't you go ask a few people in the street if Science proves there is a God, I'm sure it'll stick in your head one day. You say what I say is repetitive, yeah I'm getting bored of it too, you just don't take it in though, like how I said ISLAM DOES BACK UP SCIENCE, but doesn't prove there's a God does it? If Islam's word of Science had really succeeded, we wouldn't have such a thing as atheists in this world..

So, you're willing to take on certain bits of Science and not of others? hmm I see you're a selective chooser lol.

I don't really care if you reply, truthfully I didn't feel bothered in the first place, just thought I'd do my bit and try and alleviate some ignorance of Islam in this world. And don't deny you didn't want to spread your beliefs because I've come across people like you before. If you didn't want to, you'd be eating your pork in the corner and keeping to yourself, NOT justifying it on a public journal. I don't judge anyone, and I'm not holier than thou, I'm just defending my beliefs is all.

I will end by using my all time favourite quote
'I have never won an argument with an ignorant person'

Walaikumasalam wr wb

[KALKI]

INTERESTING READ FROM BOTH SIDES...

TECHNICALLY AS A HINDU, YOUR NOT SUPPOSE TO EAT BEEF ...AS PORK IS HARAM TO MUSLIMS.., IF ITS NOT ALLOWED, ITS NOT ALLOWED.

WHEN I WAS 11 OR SO, I REMEMBER ALL ME MATES BUYING BEEF FLAVOR CRISPS AND GOBBLING THEM DOWN, I USED TO STICK TO CHICKEN FLAVOR CRISPS TO PLAY SAFE...

I REMEMBER ME MOM'S SIKH FRIEND, TELLING HER THAT: "ITS ONLY FLAVORING, AND IT CONTAINS NO ACTUAL BEEF EXTRACTS"

ON THAT NOTE MY MATE USED TO EAT BEEF FLAVORING CRISPS ALL THE TIME INFRONT OF ME TO PROVE A POINT....THAT FELT TO ME LIKE A GREY AREA,

ONCE YOU START HAVING A CRAVING OR TASTE FOR SOMETHING. HOW LONG TILL YOU HAVE THE ACTUAL ITEM?
NOT GONNA LIE, BUT WHEN I SEE A SLAP OF ROAST BEEF ON DISPLAY OR ON FOOD PACKETS ..

IT DOES LOOK DELICIOUS ALL COOKED UP ...AND THE SCENT IS DISTINCTIVE, COMPARISON TO PORK OR CHICKEN...MAYBE THAT'S WHY MANY OF MY MATES WOULD EAT BEEF FLAVORED CRISPS...TO FULFILL THAT CRAVING IN SUBTLE WAYS.....

...AND WHETHER ITS FORBIDDEN OR NOT...HOW LONG TILL YOU ACTUALLY LICK YOUR LIPS N SAY....."THAT WAS YUMMY...SHALL I TRY THE REAL DEAL?" OR U MAY DISLIKE IT, WHO KNWS..

DID I EVER JUDGE MY MATE FOR EATING BEEF FLAVA CRISPS? NAH, HIS LIFE...

[BabyLeo]

i agree with kal on the beef crisp subject
before i developed my eating disorder and was really strict on what i eat(only halal no pork and i dnt like beef) i fefused to eat flavoured crisp but i also never understood how it was "suitable for vegetarians"
now i eat flavoured crisp(very rare though) i do only eat halal meat from butchers but to be truthfull i eat mc Ds pizza hut and kfc meat which aint halal but thats my prefrence i dont jjudge anyone eating beef or pork, halal or non halal

i try my best to keep to halal but if im craving mc Ds i wont eat anythink but that so eating non halal comes into the subject

[Original Sistah]

Dudes, this aint about judging though which is what I was saying all along, I really couldn't care less if Muslims were eating pork if they wanted to, but making out that the religion they follow allows it is wrong, because they are just trying to justify their sins (and in the religion yes it is a sin to eat haraam)

And if I or others allowed people to spread different interpretations of Islam, then it would change it, and since it hasn't happened since it was revealed, why start it now?

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

lol...still slating me i see..

jus dropping by sistah to say...yeh i still think gelatine is halal...i was trying to say...that you can believe whatever you want to believe is correct...im not trying to change people's opinions of what they think is halal and what is haraam...and was merely pointing out the fact that i ...along with many others see that gelatine is halal...and your causing an uproar by having a hissy fit about it, you seem to be very angry about this issue...however, with me , your lack of debating skills...get on my nerves...the fact that you argue like a child instead of making your point like an adult.

Also, i know you have plenty of hadiths and qur'an to back up what your saying, but you still haven't shown me one that relates SPECIFICALLY to gelatine. where is says, clear cut that its haraam...NOW your going to go on about haraam meat and animals...gelatine and meat are not the same thing...may i remind you.

THEREFORE, your pathetic lil argument about cannabilism is thrown out the window as well.

AND im not trying to change Islam. Gelatine is not from an animal. thats the basic point. and you know the rest, ive repeated myself loads of times on how its made. and you still havent disproven the fact that the cartilage and gelatine are two different things. scientifically speaking.

How is gelatin made?
"The production of the gelatin starts w/refinement of collagen-bearing tissues of ANY ANIMAL that has raised and slaughtered for food purposes. ....These materials are carefully soaked in alkalies and/or acids and washed in clean water to remove almost all non-collagen constituents, including meat. During this soaking period the collagen is converted to gelatin. The treated materials are then cooked gently in pure water to extract the gelatin, which is further refined by filtration....(Contrary to common belief, gelatin is not manufactured from horns or hooves or meat of animals, for these do not contain the necessary collagen).

"It is interesting to note that during manufacture of gelatin, chemical changes take place so that, in the final gelatin product, the composition and identity of the orignal material is completely eliminated. Because of this, gelatin is not considered a meat food product by the United States government..."

and by many scholars may i just add there. lol

Show me a hadith or any Qu'ranic verse that says specifically that gelatine is haraam...and i'll give up and say that its haraam...because then i can't dispute it.

i think you'll find ive addressed your many...lil minded points that you made.