Is gelatine haraam?

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

Bismillahi wa salaatu wa salaamu 'alaa rasulillah,

(Taken entirely from a dars given by Sh. Muhammad Bazmool, translated by Moosa Richardson and a fatwa given by Sh. al-Albaani)

Istihala is when something becomes pure. It was najis (impure) but it is now taahir (pure). A good example would be maitah (animal carcass): it is najis, but should it be burned and become ashes, or decompose and become earth, then it is taahir, it is no longer najis. This can happen with dung or feces or whatever. Whenever something changes from one property to another, then the ruling likewise changes.

Example: Let us say that someone uses the fat of a dead animal to make soap. That fat is najis, but the chemical change that it was put through makes it taahir.

Ibn Hazm put it concisely when he said,

"Ruling upon an object is upon what it is named (what it is), if the name (what it is) changes then so does the ruling."

He also mentioned in his book of fiqh, Al-Muhalla: "If the quality of the substance of naturally impure objects changes the name which was given to it so that it is no more applicable to it and it is given a new name which is given to a pure object, so it is no more an impure thing. It becomes a new object, with a new rule."

Meaning that if the natural composition of a substance changes to another substance of a different composition, so much so that you can no longer call the new substance by the name of what it was-- ruling upon that substance changes too.

Proof/Example 1:

The companions (radyallahu anhum) used to eat a cheese that came from the land of the disbelievers. In that cheese was a part of the calf which was slaughtered by the disbelievers in a way that is not in accordance with Islaam. The companions knew this, but they also knew that the prohibition was upon the calf, what is directly from the calf, and what could be properly called part of the calf; the ruling is not upon that which you cannot identify as part of the calf nor is it called any longer such-and-such part of the calf. This is called istihala.

Proof/Example 2:

Another proof from the Sunnah: The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) forbade making vinegar out of wine, but he said that if you should come across vinegar that has been made from wine then it is halaal.

Why?

The ruling is upon what the object is, and not what it was. Wine is haraam; vinegar is not, and before the wine became an intoxicant, it was halaal. Why? Because it was fruit before that.

Proof/Example 3:

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle we give you to drink of what is in their bellies from between the feces and blood, pure milk, wholesome to those who drink it." (16:66)

Allah is putting forth an example for us of how something pure can come from something impure.

And we can also use as proof something that we've already gone over. The Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said that when the hide of maitah (the carrion) is tanned, then it is taahir. He (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) gave us a method to purify something which was first impure.

Let us examine things we are familiar with: mono and diglycerides, whey, gluten, emulsifiers, gelatin, and whatever else is on the international haraam list. These by-products sometimes come from animals, pigs even, in which case the ruling on the initial substances is that they are haraam. But the initial substances (e.g. fat, marrow, cartilage, etc.) are put through chemical change so that you no longer can even call it "pig fat" or "animal bone" or "skin" or "cartilage", etc. because it is no longer that, hence it is taahir, it is halaal.

What is gelatin? As Oxford dictionary of science defines: "A colorless or pale yellow, water-soluble protein obtained by boiling collagen with water and evaporating the solution. It melts when water is added and dissolves in hot water to form a solution that sets to a gel on cooling." (page 290)

Is this a chemical change or is this not a chemical change? Is it protein any longer? No, it is not.

You are in disbelief so you ask, "But how can it be halaal when it came from something haraam?"

Because of the proofs mentioned above, the ruling is not based upon what it was, the ruling is based upon what it is. A Hanafi scholar, Ibn Abedin gave the example: "the swine which drowns in a salt lake and decomposes and becomes salt itself, is now halaal."

And other Hanafi scholars go on to say: "salt is different from meat and bones. If they become salt, they are salt."

To take the salt example further: salt consists of sodium chloride (NaCl) when together they are the halaal food known as salt, when separated they make up two poisonous substances which are then haraam for consumption.

The ahnaaf (Hanafis) also use as an example the human semen, saying that it is najis, then when it inseminates the egg and becomes a blood clot it is still najis, but when it becomes flesh it is no longer najis. And the ahnaaf are not the only ones who take this position.

The examples are numerous and they extend beyond food: Yesterday a man was kaafir and going towards Hell, today he is Muslim, so what is the ruling upon him? It is based upon what he is today.

We must be careful when we call things haraam because it is a form of thulm (oppression). Scholars have said that it is worse that you make something halaal to haraam rather than making something haraam to halaal. This deen Allah has made yusr (easy) let us not make it 'usr (hard). Wallahu 'Alim.

Rasheed Abdullaah

WAT DO U MAKE OV THAT?


go down the shops n buy sum haribo n drumsticks i say! lol

[MournfulDevil]

Okay dnt knw anythin bout science .lol . but took ur advice and got my “head around ” this… or tried u can knock me if im wrong however here it goes…

Gelatin is made by boiling the hides and bones of cows and pigs to release their collagen, or whatever ..

It starts with an animal … and u can start saying things scientifically on how it doesn’t be an animal anymore n so on …

My own opinion A: if its starts with an animal it still is an animal, B: science and religion don’t wanna start comparing beliefs/n how they do stuff then ur gonna get into a whole new mess..

Science today tries to act like god creating things n whatever …

At the end of the day u believe what u want to believe and some believe what they want to believe .. its just loop holes to me… like I said if it starts with an animal then u knw it still is … like saying okay I rob a bank, with that money I invest it make more and how much ever I robbed ill donate it to the charity then I know my investment is legit/free from sins… when I believe it isn’t

Your other question was why Muslims today believe they are vegetarian or act like it my reply to that was because of the meat thing in super stores that’s why we look for the V sign .. refer to old post…

U can knock this all day long u like and its cool at the end of the day its just my voice ..

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

okay...

its up to u if u wana believe it or not...

but one thing u jus said really annoys me...who do people say religion and science doesnt go together..they dont compare with each other...

our religion states so many things that science is jus about discovering now...if science doesnt collaborate with religion how does the qu'ran write about so many scientific things?

besides...God created science...science is just a study of what god created if you ask me. so the two DO go together.

this is why im referrin to the science of how protein denatures...and if you dont know that...then im afraid you will never understand my argument...if some1 who knows what im on about disproves me...mayb i'll think twice...LOL but i dont think they will be able to tell me that a denatured protein is the same as what is was before it got denatured lol if u get me

[MournfulDevil]

Originally Posted by w ά ŧ έ υ έ я

okay...

Originally Posted by w ά ŧ έ υ έ я

its up to u if u wana believe it or not...

but one thing u jus said really annoys me...who do people say religion and science doesnt go together..they dont compare with each other...

our religion states so many things that science is jus about discovering now...if science doesnt collaborate with religion how does the qu'ran write about so many scientific things?

besides...God created science...science is just a study of what god created if you ask me. so the two DO go together.

this is why im referrin to the science of how protein denatures...and if you dont know that...then im afraid you will never understand my argument...if some1 who knows what im on about disproves me...mayb i'll think twice...LOL but i dont think they will be able to tell me that a denatured protein is the same as what is was before it got denatured lol if u get me

lol u lost me denatures...so im gone from this post... nor do i wanna get into a heated debate so ..i bow out and take my leave

[Original Sistah]

I know gelatine is haram (if it's from a haraam source) because it's common sense, anything derived from a haram source is therefore haram. If everything was written specifically in any religion, there'd be no such thing as atheism or misinterpretation. You can't get away from the fact that the gelatine is STILL from a haram source, please don't try to impress me with your denaturing bs, it is STILL from the same source.


Let me give you an example of cannabilism, if I take the body out of it's optimum temperature, hence denaturing all of its' enzymes, mash it into pieces, make it all into a lovely curry - nothing like the old thing, does that still mean it's cannabilism? course it is.



Muslims aren't vegetarians? really? wow. The reason we look for V because it's easier. quite frankly, to do so than look at all the long list of ingredients! And even then they sometimes don't give you all the details, one ingredient in there may have some animal rennet in, but they don't say that on the ingredients list. And in western shops, most don't bother to use halal meat, duh since it's not a muslim country we're in.

Halal gelatine - whether people want money or are just willing to do a decent thing, it's there for the taking.

Terrorism promotion is spreading false 'truth' What you're doing is spreading false 'truth', it's the same thing IN MY OPINION! You can eat pork if you want to wouldn't bother me in anyway I'd even provide you with some sauce, but you spreading this bs is dangerous, 'sistah', very dangerous.
It's because of people like you that there are always 'new testaments' coming out. Well, not for Islam, it's been kept the same for years, and it's not about to change now, because of some wannabe scientists.

hahah, I seriously cannot believe you are using an argument of Science to argue against a religious belief, when you claim you're a believer. They are not antagonistic, sure you'll get some things explained in Science, stuff that's coming out in science nowadays was written in the Qur'an from yonks ago. But
Maybe if you love Science so much, you'll agree that the your ancestor is playing the drums in the new Cadbury's advert.

I'll end by saying Assalamualaikum, peace be upon you, even though I didn't get a response last time, but then again I know that salafis think they're superior to the rest of us, and that even though the Qur'an tells us to say 'peace' even to disbelievers, and forbids arrogance, no-one is of the same worth as a salafi.

[Original Sistah]

And just in case your pride still won't listen to me, read this:


Fatawa Mazahir ul Uloom vol.1 page 84-85 Fatawa Ibn Abidin [Shaami] vol.1 page
217-218
(Muslim Food Guide 3rd Edition 2000) :
in the Name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful


TABDEEL-E-MAHIYAT [CHANGE IN THE ORIGINAL PROPERTIES OF A SUBSTANCE]


Soaps undergo tremendous changes from its original substance, so all soaps will be permissible to use for Muslims. (this is where your theory is correct)

Tabdeel-e-Mahiyat is the total transformation of something whereby the original substance retains no properties of its former state and differs completely from it in application. One must understand that to include everything and anything under this analogy or cite modern food production techniques does not necessarily satisfy the condition of Tabdeel-e-Mahiyat. A classic example is Gelatine, a thickener used in food derived from skins, tendons, ligaments, bones, to produce a gelling agent. However some remnant of the original product still remains in the final packaged product making it impure and improper for use despite the great chemical changes it underwent. Hence this will not be considered Tabdeel-e-Mahiyat or Halaal.

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

if soaps can...animals can...durrr...listen lady...go and ask any scientist...or any1 else who know's anything beyond what their mother taught them...and u'll see im right...and the denaturing and how its not BS...and that cannabilism malarkey...urrr i fink u'll quite find that its jus ur brain tellin you...what your eating...but the actual stuf your eating once the proteins ahve been dentaured...are not the same...im not talkin cooking temperatures here woman...im talkin thousands of degrees ere....you won't be the same thing if i put u thru them temperatures would ya?

other than that...you believe what u believe...n i'll believe what i wana believe...your long essays are borin me..cos they're repetitve....

"Tabdeel-e-Mahiyat is the total transformation of something whereby the original substance retains no properties of its former state and differs completely from it in application. One must understand that to include everything and anything under this analogy or cite modern food production techniques does not necessarily satisfy the condition of Tabdeel-e-Mahiyat. A classic example is Gelatine, a thickener used in food derived from skins, tendons, ligaments, bones, to produce a gelling agent. However some remnant of the original product still remains in the final packaged product making it impure and improper for use despite the great chemical changes it underwent. Hence this will not be considered Tabdeel-e-Mahiyat or Halaal. "


in that case...dont eat white bread...it has traces ov alcohol in it which is produced by the yeast in the bread...and the high temperatures

have a nice time lookin for the "V" sign...LOL...see its not as simple as that is it? Lookin for the vegetarian sign...cos it doesnt always apply to muslims!!!

jeez...talk abt killin the topic.

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

btw..."sistah"...i dont see myself as superior to anyone....

and as for u...you reckon you have some kind of authority to suggest that im not a believer?

if you wana act bad, and say im not tellin the truth...dont call me a disbeliever...cos thats haraam in itself...what do you know abt me other than what im saying here?

and btw...what is it with you ppl ...our religion is based on scientific fact! most ov what our religion teaches us...can be proven by science.... so how is the fact that im using science to back up what i believe to be the truth be wrong?...u dont know what your talkin about...

and why are u talkin abt cadburys? and drum playing? i dont have a clue what your point is there...cos ive got better things to do than analyse ADVERTS!

[BabyLeo]

sorry im lost i seen cadburys and im hungry plz sum1 let me know wahs going on

Also how do you know if a muslim killed the meat in the shop? a white guy can be muslim but ppl would not buy a pakistani guy could be any other religion then muslim and you will buy
Money talks alot(i say alot not all!!) of these shops think about money before anythink else!!
not puttin you off meat but its true


anyway lets all have some haribos halal and non halal i dnt care im hungry

[w ά ŧ έ υ έ я]

i agree wit you babyleo...

how do u know meat is actualy halal...from what ive heard...the mass kill the animals whilst playin the watever it is they read to make it halal on a tape player...which would make much more economical sense...than killin each 1 individually the proper way....

we live in a money hungry world

sum ppl need to burst their lil bubble n realise we dnt live in a perfect world...lol

[Original Sistah]

Originally Posted by w ά ŧ έ υ έ я

.or any1 else who know's anything beyond what their mother taught them...and u'll see im right...and the denaturing and how its not BS...and that cannabilism malarkey...urrr i fink u'll quite find that its jus ur brain tellin you...what your eating...but the actual stuf your eating once the proteins ahve been dentaured...are not the same...im not talkin cooking temperatures here woman...im talkin thousands of degrees ere....you won't be the same thing if i put u thru them temperatures would ya?

other than that...you believe what u believe...n i'll believe what i wana believe...your long essays are borin me..cos they're repetitve...
.

Wow I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the arrogance of ignorance out there. Firstly, please identify where I called you a disbeliever, I wouldn't call anyone a disbeliever because I know how the Prophet (saw) called it wrong... so I'm thikning that you can't read properly or yo're just simply intellectually challenged.

any1 who knows anything beyond what their mother taught them? bwahahaahhaah girl, you really think you're the only one here who's done science? girl don't flatter yourself. (I call you girl because your language doesn't make me think otherwise). OBVIOUSLY stuff changes, but it will always have some of the original in it ALWAYS, even if it's a tiny segment.. why don't you go and ask a scientist if that's true, because I know it it

Based on your theory.... people can eat humans or anything they want then? Right I'll tell the police that cannabilism is ok! you carry on, as I said eat what you want. It only becomes my business when you start spreading your trash to impressionable people in the ummah who think you're actually saying something viable.

Repetitive? I have valid points, everyone here knows I do, you on the other hand haven't provided one counter-attack against any of my points, thus proving that you're just chattin breeze with no substance to your argument at all.